From a message by a Curious Questioner--
>CQ> Subject: Works... 1/2
>CQ> RECEIVE what scripture clearly says. Why must you rearrange or change the scriptures.
Change? 2 sense? (Eph.1:4 is only PART of the Eph.1:3-6 sentence. :)
>CQ> Ephesians 1:4 >CQ> "According as He hath CHOSEN us in Him BEFORE the foundation of >CQ> ^^^^^^ >CQ> the world that we should be Holy and without blame before Him >CQ> in Love."
Change? Eph.1:4 in the AV1611 has a colon at the end, not a period.
>CQ> Romans 9:11
>CQ> "for the children BEING NOT YET BORN, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of ELECTION might stand, not of works, but of HIM THAT CALLETH..."
(The AV1611 has that nine one-one verse in womb-like PARENTheses. ;)
A.V. Romans
9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
The not-yet-born "twins" were already ALIVE in the womb, and they had already CHOSEN to struggle together! The LORD, knowing that Esau would one day sell his birthright, told Rebekah: "the elder shall serve the younger." The constellation Gemini (the twins) is referred to as "Castor and Pollux" in Acts 28:11p. Castor (actually 6 stars) used to be brighter than Pollux, but it is no longer the brighter of the two "stars". Astronomers can't AGREE whether one got dimmer, or the other brighter. (Jacob is now brighter than Esau in heaven! :)
>CQ> Before Jacob was born he was the Elect.
God's choice of Jacob was based on foreknowledge! Before you were born, God KNEW whether (or not) you would receive the Lord Jesus.
>CQ> Jacob God Loved,
>CQ> Esau God hated.
"Loved" & "hated" are past tense. ("Castor" oil have I hated. :)
>CQ> That's his Will to have Compassion on whom He will have Compassion, and Mercy on whom He will have Mercy!
When was God unmerciful to Esau himself? WHEN was Esau hated? (Isaac loved Esau. Rebekah loved Jacob. Esau hated Jacob. When? :)
>CQ> Election is not after someone is Saved, it's long Before.
Eternity is timeless, as the Lord says: "Before Abraham was, I am"! Temporally speaking I was not among the saved, before the Lord Jesus Christ appeared unto me on the road that goeth toward Damascus; (He that hath an ear, let him hear:) But eternally speaking, by the grace of God, I am what I am, (elect in Christ before the foundation of the world. Whoso readeth, let him understand! :)
"And whosoever WILL, let him take the water of life FREELY."
Grace be to them that RECEIVE the love of the truth. Amen. --Richard
>CQ> Private interpretation is when you take a clear verse, and Interpret it to actually mean something other than what it says. For example, taking a verse that says Elected BEFORE the foundation of the world and Privately interpreting it to mean chosen After we believe.
The verse does not say "Elected BEFORE", but rather says, "chosen us in him before", in that place. Your tunnel vision is focusing too much on the when, and not enough on the where and the WHO! Whether we were chosen in him before the foundation or five seconds before we were born, doesn't change the fact that the blessing wherewith he blesses us in heavenly places is found IN CHRIST. The real issue is whether or not you are IN CHRIST in truth. (Lovest thou me? :)
>CQ> Perfect example is what you were saying about "The propitiation for not only us, but the whole world".
Us? The Bible doesn't say propitiation for us, but that "he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1Jn.2:2) (Not part, WHOLE! :)
>CQ> The only thing in question is who is the "US" being spoken of.
The "our" is John and the "little children" of the previous verse to whom he did "write" these things. Besides little children, he also addresses "Brethren", "fathers" and "young men" in his epistle.
Notice in 1st John that the author in the second chapter is an "I", but a plural "we" in chapter one. ("And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full." Jn.1:4 :)
>CQ> There are two choices, it either means the Jewish people, or it means believers.
Or maybe, just maybe, the "our" is the MY little children, of verse one, and the I writing unto them? (Ever read 1Cor.4:15? :)
>CQ> Searching scripture...
(While you're hop-scotching all over the Bible, don't forget to land on the verse where the BEGINNING of the sentence of 1Jn.2:2 is:)
>1Jn.2:1> "MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
>1Jn.2:2> "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
>CQ> That's a start. careful study of all scripture in context reveals the TRUTH of the matter.
(Thou hast said! :) The "context" of 1Jn.2:2 includes the 1st part of the sentence in verse 1, which reveals to whom the author was writing. (Why do EDUCATED people have such a hard time comprehending something so simple that even "little children" can understand? :)
(Please see next message. Thanks in advance! :)
>CQ> But all who are called (all the world) do not come. ...Why? >CQ> All you have to do is RECEIVE God's word why. >CQ> "...For many are Called but FEW are CHOSEN!" >CQ> ^^^^^^
You admit then, that whoever the "few" are, that they were CALLED before they are chosen? WHEN were they called? Called to do what in the context? Is the context before or after the cross?
>>QU> You obviously don't know what propitiation means:
The final authority, Dear Gentle Reader, on what a word in the Bible means, is not a dictionary or concordance or seminary; but how a word is used in the particular context in which it is found.
>CQ> Propitiation means that Christ made Redress, Atonement or reparation for the sins that He carried to the Cross.
He carried the cross (with some help from Simon) to Calvary, where our sins, (and not our's only, but also the sins of the whole world:) were laid on him, and he bare our sins in his own body on the tree. (Whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Before the cross, no man could come to him except the Father draw him, but when he was lifted up, (bless the Lord, O my soul:) when he is lifted up, he draws all men unto himself.
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (--the Lord Jesus, Jn.12:32) (ALL does not mean few. :)
>CQ> You simply "CANNOT" have Christ the Propitiation for the sins of every single person in the world, and have some in the world standing with Unpropitiated for sins to be Judged for.
Nonsense. Haven't you EVER done things for other people? Haven't you ever gone out of YOUR way to give someone something? If you BUY ten items for ten people, and only one receives the FREE GIFT, does that mean that you did not actually pay the price for the other nine? If a Man bought a slave from a slavemaster for the purpose of setting him free, and he CHOOSES to return to his former master, does that mean the Man didn't purchase his redemption?
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Rom.5:18)
The Free Gift came! He came as the propitiation for our sins, and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive!
If you have been "made free from sin", why do you yet serve sin?
Remember that Jesus is the Lord and receive the love of the truth.
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with us all. Amen. --Richard
>>Previous Person> Unlimited Atonement: Jesus Christ died for the Sins of the whole world.
>Curious Questioner> Christ died to procure salvation for all whom God the Father chose out of humanity to save; that is, the elect people of God.
>CQ> the theory of "Christ died for the sins of the entire world" crumbles into debris for sheer illogicality and lack of Biblical evidence.
No, the holy scripture that says that Christ is the propitiation "for the sins of the whole world", is not a theory or crumbled debris, but the gospel truth given by inspiration of God.
>CQ> The unBinlical assumption that salvation is initiated from Man's side :
That "assumption" appeared first among the straw dummies of your messages. No other participant in this discussion claimed such.
>CQ> Faith is gifted to the elect regenerated person after regeneration;
Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Salvation is by grace through faith. Therefore, faith must come by the word of God, BEFORE grace can work in your heart through that faith.
My understanding is that generally the order is:
(1) God calls and sends the preacher who preaches the word
(2) The word of faith is heard (in one ear - out the other? or:)
(3) Faith comes, they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31p)
(4) They call upon the name of the Lord and are saved. (Rom.10:13)
(5) Believers are given "power to become the sons of God". (Jn.1:12)
Conception comes before birth; whether natural, or whether by the incorruptible seed of the word, by which believers are born again. It is NOT, be saved, so you can then believe, but: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
>CQ> ...capable in himself of initiating his salvation by a theoretical "free-will"
Receiving the gift of God is not initiating salvation. The Giver, the Saviour himself, makes the gift available through the preaching of the gospel. God doesn't enslave man's will by forcing the gift down his throat. "Freely ye have received..."!
("And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." :)
The word of faith says, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Remember that Jesus is the Lord and receive the love of the truth. Amen. --Richard
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