Subject: "vail" (2Cor.3:15p)

[Please read these background Bible verses:]

2nd Corinthians 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

3:12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

(2nd Corinthians 3:6-16 - see also: Exodus 34:28-35 --)

Exodus 34:28 ¶ And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses’ hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.
32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
33 And [till] Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel [that] which he was commanded.
35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

From a message by a Curious Female--
>CF> Subj: SPIRIT & LAW
>CF> *>>> Part 3 of 4...

>>Previous Person> "What had glory, in this case has no glory on account of the glory that surpasses it."

>CF> Again you are misapplying the scriptures here. The glory which faded was the glory on the face of Moses. Which he received when he went up on the Mount the Second time to receive the Tablets and the law and the "ministration of death" which the children of Israel were commanded to write upon the stones on Mt. Ebal when they cross over the Jordan.

"[Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (2Cor.3:3)

"But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" (2Cor.3:7,8)

"And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him." (Ex.34:29)

It is plain in the context that the stones Paul had in mind were the two stones in Moses' hand, with the writing of God "graven upon the tables", when he returned from the mount and met with the rulers and children of Israel and had to vail his face because of the brightness of the glory of God. After some time making known the commandments, with the glory fading, he entered the tabernacle, and while he was with the LORD, removed the vail, and when he came out the brightness of the glory of God was again shining on his face, so Moses had to put the vail upon his face again!

The Lord himself fashioned the first tables of stone and wrote upon them. Moses had those two stones in his two hands when he saw the golden calf, and in the sight of Israel, before their eyes, brake them at the base of the mount. Afterward, the Lord had Moses hew two replacement stones, and again the Lord wrote the words of the commandments with the finger of God, graven upon the tables.

Many years later, the children set up, not small tables of stone, but great stones in mount Ebal. That writing was not "engraven" in the stone, but they plastered the stones and wrote in the plaster. (Use of an "iron" graving tool was forbidden. :)

>CF> Exodus 33:18 - 34:35 tell of Moses' two other forty day fasts, so that in all Moses fasted for 120 days.

Yes, the three fasts would total 120 days of being sustained, not by food and water, but by the very presence of the Lord God. (Amen! :)

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with us all. Amen. --Richard

Further Reply to: "vail" (2Cor.3:14p)

>CF> *halom Richard,

Blessings to y'all... Before replying, let me note that some people are still using software limiting message length to 60 lines. Your 153 line (80-column) message becomes more than 200 lines on my 40-column monitor. (Could you use shorter "scrolls"? Thanks. :)

>>RC> [clip] (2Cor.3:3)
>>RC> [snip] (2Cor.3:7,8)
>>RC> [clip] (Ex.34:29)

>>RC> It is plain in the context that the stones Paul had in mind were the two stones in Moses' hand, with the writing of God "graven upon the tables", when he returned from the mount and met with the rulers and children of Israel and had to vail his face because of the brightness of the glory of God. After some time making known the commandments, with the glory fading, he entered the tabernacle, and while he was with the LORD, removed the vail, and when he came out the brightness of the glory of God was again shining on his face, so Moses had to put the vail upon his face again!

>CF> True, it was the glory on Moses face that eventually faded. But it does not say that the glory on Moses face "faded" in the Torah, but in the New Testament...

Well, [technically] it doesn't say "faded" in the new testament either, but "glory was to be done away..." (2Cor.3:7p etc. :)

It is by the comparison of scripture with scripture that we deduced that the glory was fading while he talked with them, and that when he went to talk face-to-face with the LORD, he got a re-charge as it were, and when he came out they "again" were recoiled by the brightness of the glory and Moses had to put the vail on "again."

Paul was an eye-witness to the same sort of thing in the case of Stephen, whose face was lightened with the glory of God, and they saw his face as it had been the face of an angel. The opening words of his message were: "The God of glory..." Like Moses, Stephen did great wonders and miracles among the people, and was mighty in "wisdom" (6:10p) and deeds. The JOY in Stephen's face at the beginning of his prophecy faded to anger by verse 51, but bless the Lord, O my soul, BEHOLD how his face brightened again when the heavens opened and he was face to face with the glory of God in the face of Jesus (not sitting :) standing on the right hand of God!

As John the baptist was Elijah, preceeding the ministry of the Lord of glory, so Stephen was as Moses, following the Lord's ministry. These are the two anointed ones standing by the Lord of the whole earth as we see in Matthew 17, where Peter wanted to build three tabernacles for them at the feast signifying the glorious second advent of the Lord of glory who returns with power as KING OF KINGS.

>CF> However, my point which seems to have gotten lost is that it was not the Law of God which faded, as some teach but the glory on Moses face.

(Well, the light from Moses' face shining on the tablets faded... :)

The law written in easily-weathered "plaister" on the Ebal stones is no longer to be seen. And you don't see the ark with the tablets of testimony in it on Moriah in the Dome of the Rock. And that which Jesus wrote (Jn.8p) with his fingers was trampled underfoot.

>>RC> The Lord himself fashioned the first tables of stone and wrote upon them. Moses had those two stones in his two hands when he saw the golden calf, and in the sight of Israel, before their eyes, brake them at the base of the mount. Afterward, the Lord had Moses hew two replacement stones, and again the Lord wrote the words of the commandments with the finger of God, graven upon the tables.

>CF> Agreed.

WOW! (Thumpity-thumpity-thumpity... calm down, O my heart... :)

The writing of God, "written with the finger of God" (Ex.31:18p & Deut.9:10p) was graven upon the two pairs of stones fashioned into tablets. (Yes, the first two fashioned by the Lord, and the replacements by Moses, with the Lord writing on them all. :)

The writing was not just written, but graven, which agrees with Paul's statement: "...written and engraven in stones..." (2Cor.3:7p)

The writing of the Ebal stones was not graven into the stones, but written in the fresh plaister, which no doubt was originally soft enough for fingers of a man's hand to write in! (And when the sun set... even the glorious brilliance of the plaister faded away... :)

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal." (2Cor.4:18)

>>RC> (Use of an "iron" graving tool was forbidden. :)

>CF> Actually the use of an "iron graving tool" was only forbidden for making an Altar not for any other reason.

Do you see Joshua setting up any other stones besides the great "whole" stones of the altar? "And he wrote there upon [not in] the stones a copy of the law..." (ref. Joshua 8:30-32 :)

Joshua 8:30 ¶ "Then Joshua built an altar unto the LORD God of Israel in mount Ebal, [31] As Moses the servant of the LORD commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up [any] iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the LORD, and sacrificed peace offerings. [32] And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel." (Joshua 8:30-32)

>CF> 8. And thou shalt _Write_ (3789 kathab - grave) upon the stones all the words of this law very plainly.

Kawthab is a generic word for writing and is not translated "grave" in the Bible. The word for "graven" (with the finger of God) is "charvuth" (Cheth-Resh-Vau-Thau ...sounds almost like carveth! :)

>CF> What was written on the stones of Mount Ebal however? That is the question!

"All" the law in the book of Deuteronomy given to Israel on Moses' 120th birthday, (mon.11 day.1 :) before he died in Pisgah.

>CF> Deut. 27:13-26.
>CF> While these blessings and curses were not written on stones

(There's no blessings in Deut.27:13-26, they're found elsewhere. :)

>CF> The Tablets of the Law are not called "Stones" but Tables of Stone.

(Uh oh... Your earlier "Agreed" comment just faded away... :)

[ RCnote: They are not called "stones" in Exodus or Deuteronomy, but were called "stones" by Paul, in 2nd Corinthians 3:7p, and "tables" in 3:3p :]

>CF> The blessings were pronounced from Mt. Gerezim, but the curse of the Law from Mount Ebal.

(There was no writing of the law on Mt. Gerezim, but on Mt. Ebal. :)

>>RC> Yes, the three fasts would total 120 days of being sustained, not by food and water, but by the very presence of the Lord God. (Amen! :)

>CF> Amen. Shalom, [Name]

>CF> The world stands on Torah, Divine Service, and good deeds.

Children of God REST in the finished work of Christ Jesus the Lord.

Grace be to your heart in God's sight for Jesus' sake. Amen. --Rich