[Note, CQ was arguing from the Seventh Day Adventist position. In the original message, there were 2 columns comparing the 10 commandments on the left, with the Ceremonial Law on the right. My reply at the time was written on a 40-column monitor that could not display both columns side by side, hence the re-formatting.]
>CQ> Subj: TABLES OF TEN
>>RC> Subj: TABLES OF TEN
Hi [CQ]. (Again, Quotes from your left column text are indicated with "CQ1" and quotes from the right column indicated with "CQ2". :)
>>>CQ1> X Commandments - - - - >>>CQ2> Ceremonial Law
>>>CQ1> [X Commandments] 1) Is called the "royal law" James 2:8
>>RC> The "royal law" according to the scripture: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Obviously that is what he called royal, not the stony tables of the old covenant between Israel and the Lord.
>CQ> Read the whole context....
>CQ> James 2:8-11 "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
That still speaks of the royal law according to the scripture (singular) that says, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." That is the scripture the "twelve tribes", to whom James was writing, must obey in order to "fulfil the royal law." (Why do you think other wise? :)
>>>CQ1> [X Commandments] 2) Was spoken by God. Deuteronomy 4: 12,13
>>>CQ2> [Ceremonial Law] Was spoken by Moses. Leviticus 1:1-3
>>RC> He that "spake" in Lev.1:1-3 is obviously "the LORD" as it says.
>CQ> Leviticus 1:1-3 " And the Lord called unto Moses and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, SPEAK unto the children of israel, and say unto them...|
>CQ> My bible says Moses "spoke" this to the children of israel not God himself.
The LORD himself obviously first "spake" the words that Moses later was to "SPEAK" (rehearse) to others. It seems vain to think that the word of the LORD is somehow diminished if it comes indirectly, rather than directly. (After all, The Lord spake all the Lord's words. :)
>>>CQ1> [X Commandments] 3) Was written with the finger of God. Exodus 31:18.
>>>CQ1> [X Commandments] 4) Was placed "in" the ark. Exodus 40:20, Hebrews 9:4.
>>RC> Nope. The tables of your Exodus 31:18 reference were destroyed by Moses beneath the mount. (ref.Ex.32:19) After Moses broke the tables of the covenant that God had made with the children of Israel, he had him make two replacement tables, and he wrote on them according to the words of the covenant that the Lord made with Israel.
>CQ> The X Commandments were origional, written with His finger.
The originals were destroyed beneath the mount, not put in the ark.
>CQ> It took Moses 40 days and 40 nights to fix his mistake (g).
Mistake? Israel had broken the commandments, and Moses as their representative, graphically demonstrated that the commandments were indeed broken, by breaking the very tables before their eyes. He also very graphically destroyed their golden idol, their sin, reducing it to very fine powder, colloidal gold, which when cast into the water, didn't sink but remained suspended; and the water didn't turn yellow; the water flowing out of the mount of God they drank was blood-red!
>>>CQ1> [X Commandments] 5) Is to "stand forever and ever." Psalms 111:7,8
>>RC1> Psm.111:7 refers to the works of his hands. The first tables
>>RC2> of stone were "the work of God", and they were broken beneath
>>RC3> the mount. The second tables were the work of Moses, whom
>>RC4> the Lord told to "hew" two tables like unto the first, and
>>RC5> he wrote upon them (front and back) according to the writing
>>RC6> on the first tables.
>CQ> What? the "He" in the whole chapter refers to the Lord. Not Moses. Read the whole thing so as not to pull scriptures out of context.
The "he" on line "RC5" above is "the Lord" of line "RC4". (Read "the whole thing" before attacking a "flea" with ICBM's. :)
"And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." (Ex.34:28)
The 1st & 2nd he of v.28 is Moses. The 3rd he is the LORD, as is verified by Deut.10:2,4. (So when can we let this topic REST? :)
When the children of Israel encompassed Jericho, they worked for six days, walking round about the city once each day. Instead of resting the 7th day, they WORKED 7 TIMES HARDER, (like FLINT! :) to complete the circumcision of the walls of that gentile city by faith!
Grace be to them that love the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. --Richard
From another reply to a Curious Questioner (SDA)--
>CQ> Subj: NEW AND BETTER WAY
>>RC> Subj: NEW AND BETTER WAY
>>>CQ> And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship befor me, saith the Lord."|
>>>CQ> ...this says something like we will "Worship on the Sabbath".
>>RC> "From...to..." includes all days between, all the day long.
>>RC> Continual worship is indicated in Revelation 4:8.
>CQ> Then Richard if God told you to cross a LAVA PIT by stepping from one rock to another I think you will be the only one to step in between and get burned.(GRIN)....
So then, you think that "from even unto even" (Lev.23:32p) is only the "even" (sunset) and "even", and not any of the hours between?
(If you don't step in between the fiery sunsets, you might "get burned." :)
>>RC> It was not until the children of Israel were delivered out of Egypt that they were given a command concerning observing the 7th day, under the old testament covenant. We're under grace now, in the new testament, not under the law. (But if you want to rest on Saturday: Knock yourself out! :)
>CQ> Under grace and faith we are Richard but, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law". (Romans 3:31)
>CQ> Do you establish the law in your life?
In our life? Paul said nothing about the law being established in our life. "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Rom.7:9) Christ, on behalf of sinners, establishes the law by enduring its penalty: death. Being crucified with Christ, we become dead to the law, and we are no longer under the law, but under grace, walking in new life.
The law kills the "old man", so the new man under grace (not under law) can be joined unto the Lord: "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
>CQ> Are you kidding me?
Are you a goat kid? ("A merry heart doeth good like a medicine." :)
>CQ> Prior to Sinai did no standard of right and wrong exist? Did God allow men and women to do as they pleased, with no divine warning against evil?
"Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters. For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword." (Job 33:13-18)
Obviously, for the most part, people did as they pleased. Until the law was given at Sinai, sin was in the world, (for by one man sin entered into the world:) but sin is not imputed when there is no law: "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." (Rom.5:14)
>CQ> How could the Sodomites or those who perished in the Flood be condemned if no law against their acts existed?
"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ. (Rom.2:12,16p, etc., read Romans 1:18 thru 2:16 :)
>CQ> The Bible says that "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4); thus, if there were no law, there could be no sin.
"For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." (Rom.4:14,15)
>CQ> In the story of Cain and Abel, the Lord said to Cain; "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door" (Genesis 4:7). If Cain had not been aware of God's law, he could not know what sin was, as Paul wrote "by the law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 7:7)
Cain's "sin" was identified by the LORD right before his eyes, (and before your eyes right there in the very verse where the word was used.) Abel had done "well" to bring an offering of his "firstlings" to the door, but Cain, (Adam's firstling, :) brought an offering of fruit of the "ground" that had been cursed for Adam's sake. Abel had brought "of" the firstlings, not all of them. There was no lack of firstlings, and Abel was so happy that the LORD had accepted his offering, he surely would have given the whole flock for Cain! After all, with brotherly love, Abel's "desire" would be "unto" Cain, his elder brother, the firstborn who could rightly "rule" over him!
A man who is not so "wroth" that he can't see straight, could have beheld that one of the firstlings, the very firstborn RAM himself, was standing right there "behind" (Gen.22:13p) him, ready and willing to be a covering for his "sin." But, of course, like a lamb receiving a dressing down is dumb, so he opened not his mouth! (In a text recording spoken things, a silent Lamb can be overlooked. :)
So then, unto Cain would be Abel's desire, and it was said to Cain that "thou shalt rule over him." Surely you remember how those same two words were used in Gen.3:16p-- "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." The "desire" (real brotherly affection) of the younger brother shall be unto the elder (firstborn) brother, and normally, the elder would "rule" over the younger.
But BEHOLD! Cain rejected his birthright, choosing not to be his brother's keeper; So when he went and "talked with Abel his brother", he sacrificed the shepherd instead of a sheep.
Cain knew that the blood of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world had been shed to provide a covering for Adam's nakedness. Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock for an offering, but Cain brought of his own sweat-bought fruit wrested from the ground that had been cursed when the earth opened her mouth to receive the blood of the lamb, slain when the LORD said unto Adam, "Cursed is the ground for thy sake..."
>CQ> The Lord said that He would multiply Jacob's descendants because his grandfather Abraham "obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws" (Genesis 26:5)...What laws?
The Lord was speaking to Isaac in Gen.26:5, not Jacob. What laws? (Peradventure, the laws of the ANGEL that was directing his steps, from place to place, so he wouldn't fall "in between" times? :)
>CQ> When Joseph was tempted by his Egyptian master's wife, he cried out, "How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" (Genesis 39:9). How could Joseph have known that adultery was a "sin against God" unless he knew of God's law concerning it|
How did Abimelech know that he was about to commit adultery in Genesis 20:3-7? (God also "withheld" him from sinning! :)
>CQ> Befor the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the Lord said to Abraham, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous...." (Genesis 18:20). What sin? The Bible says that "sin is not imputed (charged) when there is no law" (Romans 5:13..
And verse 14, "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come." (Rom.5:14)
>CQ> I ask you Richard. What kind of God would wipe out the world with a flood, or Sodom and Gomorrah with fire, unless those people had known that they were sinning?
Am I in God's stead? Do not interpretations belong unto God? What kind of a fool would say unto God, "What doest thou?" Before the flood, God raised up a "preacher of righteousness" unto the people of that wicked generation, to declare unto them their sin. When the ark of salvation was complete, before their eyes, one last time, the word of the LORD appealed to them to REPENT; but they say unto God: "Depart from us: for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways."
Therefore "he that letteth", even he that in the beginning said, Let there be light; even the LORD himself, turned from them and entered first into the ark, and said to Noah, "Come thou and all thy house into the ark;" And after the flood was past, He said, "Go forth..." (The LORD is the first, and bless God, the LORD is the last! :)
Baby doves in the sides of the north! Bless the LORD, O my soul! |
(We had just paused while writing this message, and looked out the window to see how our nesting turtledove was faring; In her place: two tiny heads with two tiny eyes peeking out with wonderment! :)
>CQ> And because, according to the Bible, only through the law is the knowledge of sin, the law must have been revealed prior to Sinai.
ONLY? No, not only through the law. The Bible says that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. And the Bible says that the law is not of faith. Something that the law says is right to do, but a certain person in his heart might think is wrong, if that person does that thing contrary to his own heart, then it is sin unto that person. Remember that Jesus is the Lord and REPENT! Come thou and thy house into the ark which is Christ Jesus the LORD, and be saved by grace! Grace be to your heart, for Jesus' sake. Amen. --Richard
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