Saturday the 7th day

Calendar vs. Real time?

From a message by a Curious Questioner--
re: seventh day vs. first day?

>CQ> The "seventh day" all depends on when you start counting.

The counting started "In the beginning..." (Gen.1:1p). Going strictly by counting days as cycles of sunset and sunrise, the cycle of days has continued forward. If you were counting days by some other method, like a sand-clock, during the LONG day in the time of Joshua, then your calendar would be off by "about" one day. (What would have been Sunday by clock time, would still be Saturday by sun time. :)

>CQ> Remember the calendar is a man made device, besides since OT days we have had at least three different calendars (the Gregorian, the Justinian, and the Jewish lunar calendar).

Your so-called "man made device" is based on the God made cycles included in the creation as mentioned in Genesis 1:14 and elsewhere.

>CQ> At the time the Justinian was replaced by the Gregorian there were 11 days lopped off because the old calendar had gotten way outa wack with "real time".

Days of the MONTH. The cycle of weeks was not changed. The only difficulty with reconciling different calendars is in determining the points in common. A lunar calendar is not "inaccurate", since the cycle of the phases of the moon is fairly regular. That cycle just does not mesh well (now) with a solar cycle to have an even number of months in the year.

As far as out-of-wack calendars go, the year 46BC lasted 445 days in order to get the calendar back on track, with the Julian (old style) calendar having 365 days per year and an extra day every fourth (leap) year. That calendar was closer to being accurate, but the Gregorian, or new style calendar was closer, with three leap years out of every 100 being eliminated. (But still off by about 26 seconds per year. :)

In 1582AD, October 5th was considered to be October 15th (10 days dropped) in order to make March 21st match the vernal equinox as it was presumed to have been in 325AD. WEEK days were not effected.

>CQ> One argument I find amusing is that people advocating Saturday only Sabbath will argue it is the "seventh day" based on a calendar devised by a Catholic Pope (Gregory the X).

("Ha, ha." Wrong. :) That calender was "devised" by an astronomer by the name of Christopher Clavius, and again, those calendar changes did not effect the days of the WEEK, only the days of one month in October 1582AD and the yearly cycle starting point.

Our present day calender in America is based on the British calender, which was adjusted in 1752AD by changing September 3rd to become September 14th. (11 days dropped, but WEEK days not effected. :)

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:" (Genesis 1:14)

[Note: The 12 seasons of the year are the months. "He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down." (Psalms 104:19) Days (rotation) and Years (orbits) are reckoned with the sun.]

Grace be to them that love the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. --Richard

First Day

>>CQ2> ... I'm from Missouri, so you'll have to SHOW ME that 1st century Christians met on the first day of the week, Sunday.

>CQ> Well, it's certain that the first day of the week was not the sabbath, for they're spelled differently. Acts 20:7,

Howdy ... let's look at the previous verse also--

"And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days. And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight." (Acts 20:6,7 - Author's Version 1611AV)

>CQ> The sabbath was the 7th day, not the 1st day.

Right. The "seven days" was obviously the 1st through 7th days of the week, and the sabbath ended at (Saturday) sunset, which was the beginning of the "first day of the week, when the disciples came together", etc. Paul preached from sunset to midnight; Eutychus fell from the third loft, and was taken up dead; Paul raised him, (and had a mid night snack! :) and continued preaching till sunrise. Obviously they met in the EVENING of the first day, (Saturday night and Sunday a.m. before sunrise,) but not on Sun-day morning.

Luke plainly used the Jews reckoning of days from sunset to sunset, ("from even unto even" -Lev.23:32p,) and he includes nearly a day by day time-frame from the days of unleavened bread forward, as Paul "hasted" to be at Jerusalem by Pentecost.

It is evident that Matthew, Mark and Luke generally reckoned NOON as the sixth hour, but in John, we see that 6am was called the "sixth hour" (Jn.19:14p), according to the Roman "reckoning" of time.

In "Natural History" by Pliny the Elder we read: "The day itself has been differently observed in different countries: by the Babylonians between two sunrises; by the Athenians between two sunsets; by the Umbrians from noon to noon; by the Roman priests and those who have defined the civil day, as the Egyptians also and Hipparchus, from midnight to midnight." (Midnight being the present gentile system.)

It is evident also in John 20:19 that John used the Roman reckoning. It was after sunset Sunday, but he still called it "the first day".

>CQ> If you miss the catching out of the saints, you'll find out exactly what the Lord's day is.

THE BLESSED HOPE! (Look for me "in the air". :) It is evident that "the Lord's day" of Revelation is "the day of the LORD" spoken of numerous times in prophecies of the scriptures. We're supposedly nearly at the end of the 6th 1000-yr "day", with the 7th (sabbath) millenium "day of the Lord" coming quickly. ("Even so..." :)

Grace be with your heart, in love for Jesus' sake. Amen. --Richard

The Real Millennium

Your article was interesting. ("strikes"? Ouch! :)
[Watch out for the year Twenty OH OH! :]

>CQ> Well, here's the most obvious reason why January 1, 2000 is not the millennium: in our current calendar system, there was no year zero. The date went from 1 BC to 1 AD with no year in between.

Right, so our present English CALENDAR Millenium officially begins midnight UT (England time,) Sunday evening, 31 December 2000. That would be at 7pm Eastern Standard Time.

>CQ> But even they may be off: the current calendar system we use is the Gregorian calendar, named after Pope Gregory XIII, who instituted it because the previous calendar system (the Julian) was unacceptably inaccurate. In the year 1582, when the Gregorian calendar was instituted, we "lost" ten days to get the calendar back on track with the seasons: October 4 was followed by October 15th.

We? No, AMERICANS changed from the Julian to the ENGLISH calendar system in 1752, under non-catholic King GEORGE II, and lost ELEVEN days when September 2nd was followed by September 14th. And New Year's day was also changed from March 25th to January 1st.

>CQ> In 1918, Russia switched to the Gregorian -- and added 13 days.

(You subtract 13 days to convert BACK to the Julian from our present calendar, until 2100AD, then it's 14 days different. :)

>CQ> Up until 1925, astronomers divided the day, not from midnight to midnight, but from noon to noon.

(Astronomers sitting in the dark are not all that brilliant! :)

>CQ> In the Jewish calendar today (as with the ancient Babylonian and the Greek calendar) the day went from sunset to sunset.

Which is how the day is [usually*] reckoned in the word of God. The first day of creation began with "darkness", when God created the heaven and the earth and the great deep. The "morning" that arose that first day was not "sun" rise, but the very LIGHT of the glory of God unveiling his "good" creation. (The expression "that it was good" is notably MISSING on the second day: Obviously God was the first to experience what we now call the "Monday Blahs"! :)

[* "usually" sunset to sunset - John's gospel apparently uses the Roman midnight to midnight reckoning, and the "night" the children of Israel left Eqypt, they were still using the Egyptian midnight reckoning.]

>CQ> It was the Romans who started the day at midnight, and whose example we follow.

The Romans were following the Egyptian sun worshippers who considered the HIGH point of the sun's "rule" to be the mid "day" point. (Midnight low point.)

>CQ> Those interested in the millennium as the 2000th anniversary of Jesus Christ are also in for some surprising news. Our time scale is traditionally divided into when Jesus was born and after (the years A.D. -- "Year of our Lord" ) and before he existed (B.C., "Before Christ").

NO, [Friend], NOT before he "existed" but before he was BORN. Do you deny his existence in the womb before he was (not aborted, but) BORN? Since "Jesus is the Lord", he exists before the world began; as is evident where he says: Before Abraham was, I AM!

>CQ> However, in one of life's little ironies, to the best of our knowledge, Jesus was actually born in 6 or 7 "BC". Which means, of course, that his second millennial anniversary would have been in either 1993 or 1994.

Plainly, as "the man Christ Jesus", he was born BEFORE Herod died [supposedly] in the spring of 4BC. Since Jesus was born in the seventh hebrew month, (Sep/Oct), he would have to have been born in 5BC or earlier. Jesus was no longer a babe in a manger, when the wise men met Herod, but was a "young child" in a "house" when the wise men followed the "star" to Nazareth, instead of following Herod's advise to go to Bethlehem. The "star" appeared when Jesus was born, and it takes at least four months to travel from Babylon to Jerusalem (according to Ezra 7:9), and the wise men (being "wise" :) would probably have sense enough not to travel in the winter, so by the time their "caravan" arrived, Jesus would have been at least 18 months, but less than 2 years old, making 7BC the birth year.

The Real Millenium, the seventh, or sabbath millenium, is dated from Genesis 1:1, the first day of the beginning of time as we know it. The ASSUMPTION that Jesus' birth was 4000 years after Adam is somewhat faulty. Adam wasn't born, he was created in a fully grown form, made in the image of God. The New Testament plainly reveals that Jesus, the Lord of glory, -IS- the image of God. Jesus was glorified when he was 33.5 years old. Most Bible believing Christians think that one-day old Adam would have looked like a man in his thirties. Christ, being raised from the dead, became "the last Adam", so possibly that is the point in time that is 4000 years after the first Adam, making the next millenium about 2027AD.

The Real Millenium will begin, of course, when Jesus, the LORD of Lords, returns and begins to personally rule all nations of the earth for "a thousand years", as it is written in Revelation.

The word of faith says, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be SAVED; For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Are you saved? :)

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with us all. Amen. --Richard

Saturday the 7th!

>CQ> I have a problem with another "Christian" who claims that we do not know for 100% surety that the Sabbath is what we now call Saturday...

Well... first of all, what you call Saturday, the 7th day of the gentile calendar, begins and ends at midnight; whereas the weekly Jewish sabbath begins at SUNSET Friday and ends at SUNSET Saturday. Concerning the special 10th-day sabbath in the seventh month, the Day of Atonement: "It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath." (Lev.23:32) (The expression "at even" is defined as "when the sun did SET". :)

As for changes in calendars, keep in mind that "the powers that be are ordained of God." Our present gentile calendar is a modification of previous calendar systems, and is traced back to the original 365-day egyptian calendar instituted after the flood of Noah, which had twelve 30-day months and a 5-day festival to complete the year. That calendar, being nearly a quarter-day short of the tropical year was prone to get out of step with the seasons rapidly, so the JULIAN calendar was adopted, starting with a year of 445 days in 46 B.C., to realign the seasons with the vernal equinox, and from then on had 365-day years with a leap year of 366-days every 4th year. The present-day system is a further modification which has a leap year every 4 years, EXCEPT for the century years that are not evenly divisible by 400. (1600 was a leap year, 1700, 1800 & 1900 were not.)

When catholics changed from the Julian to Gregorian, in 1582, they dropped 10 days from October of that year. In similar fashion, when ENGLAND (and her colonies, including America,) changed from the Julian, to our present ENGLISH calendar system, 11 days were dropped, so what would have been THURSDAY September 3rd was called THURSDAY September 14th. Obviously the days of the WEEK were not effected.

>CQ> Originally the sabbath was honoured on the seventh day, where the original count started from is NOT KNOWN and not considered important.

The count started with the first week of MANNA! Israel left Egypt on the morrow after the passover, in the month ABIB, ("when the Sun is in Aries", according to Josephus), the month which was to be the FIRST "month" of the year for Israel. The supply of food they took with them apparently ran out when they came unto the wilderness of Sin, "on the fifteenth day of the second month after their departing out of the land of Egypt." (Ex.16:1) The following morning, the Lord gave them MANNA to eat. (Heb."manna" = English slang: "Whatzit"! :)

So, the 1st day of manna was the 16th day of the 2nd month, and the Lord gave them TWICE as much on the 6th-day of manna, so they could rest on the 7th day. Therefore the first weekly SABBATH day observed by Israel was on the 22nd day of the 2nd month after leaving Egypt. (My calculations indicate that day was SATURDAY May 7th, 1551bc. :)

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. --Richard

Broken Bread

"Give us this day our daily bread." (Mt.6:11)

From a message by a Curious Questioner--
>CQ> Subject: broken bread

>>>CQ> I guess I won't make any headway so I suppose you can worship when you want, as long as you give on the first day of the week (1 Cor 16:2).

>>RC> If you love the Lord Jesus Christ, you should worship God and give every day.

>CQ> Richard, You are not saying that Paul didn't say to give on the first day of the week are you?

Not what Paul said. The INDIVIDUAL Corinthians ("every one") were to lay aside a portion of the fruit of their labour on the 1st working day of the week, to be collected LATER and taken to the poor saints in Jerusalem, after Paul arrived. A "year" later, Paul wrote further unto them: "And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago. Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have." (2Cor.8:10,11)

>CQ> Why do you suppose he picked that day?

The first day of the week was when the MANNA was FIRST provided in Exodus 16:14-18! :) You will find Paul referring to that passage in 2Cor.8:15 in reference to what he told them in 1Cor.16:2! Notice the words "every one" in 1Cor.16:2 and "every man" in Exodus 16:16, and further, "every man for them which are in his tents." The man of the tent gathered for those of his tent, and they "did mete it with an omer", and laid it by in store to be later gathered to the tent.

For those whose needs were small, little was provided, but for the needs of the many, MUCH was provided. Now Friend, tell me, did they that minister continually at the altar go out also and gather, or was there a "collection" made of the others' "liberality" to provide for them? (The Lord had a tent within the camp also! :)

>>>CQ> As for me I will follow the Apostles doctrine (Acts 2:42) and meet on the 1st day of the week to break bread and hear a sermon.

>>RC> There is NO mention of the first day of the week there, but rather, just four verses later their breaking of bread was plainly "daily".

>CQ> Do you think that the breaking bread in Acts 20:7 was a common meal?

It was not the observance of the Lord's passover, which was about 20 days earlier than that. (Note the days in Acts 20:6.) Breaking of bread, as we noted above, was something that was done "daily." (You might want to read about the handfuls of purpose in Ruth 2:16 :) The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be unto you. Amen. --Richard