"After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations. So Job died, being old and full of days." (Job 42:16,17)
Moses was most likely between the age of 50 and 60 when that occurred.
In view of the fact that the LORD restored to Job DOUBLE of his previous blessings, most people think that Job was 70 when the events in the book of Job took place, and that he received double more years, making him 210 when he died. (70 + 140 = 210 :)
Job is supposed to have been born in 1730 BC and died in 1520 BC, and Moses is supposed to have died about 1451 BC.
>Curious Questioner> Richard, from whence cometh this claim? You will find no time-reference in the Book of Job.
The supposition is from cross-referencing of the book of Job with other books of the Bible, tracing the people and places mentioned, and in fact, there are many historical time-references as well as prophetic references which relate directly to the Great Tribulation.
The 1520 BC date for the book of Job, found in the margin of the Bible, is derived from Ussher's chronology, which is derived from internal evidence within the Bible taken at face value.
Figuring Job's full age to have been 210 years, that would mean he was born about 1730 BC. That would put the main events about 1660 BC. Moses was 120 years old when he died about 1451 BC, which means he was born about 1571 BC, or about 90 years after the Job events. That would make Moses about 51 when Job died.
> (AA = Anno Adam calendar; BC = Before Christ calendar)
> 1656 AA / 2348 BC - Flood of Noah (Oct/Nov.2349 - Nov.2348)
> 1776 AA / 2228 BC - Tower of Babel (120 yrs after flood)
> 1996 AA / 2008 BC - Peleg died
> 2274 AA / 1730 BC - Job born
> 2369 AA / 1635 BC - Joseph died (end of Genesis)
> 2344 AA / 1660 BC - Main events of Job age 70 in Arabia (Uz/Edom)
> 2433 AA / 1571 BC - Moses born
> 2473 AA / 1531 BC - Moses leaves egypt, dwells in Arabia (Midian)
> 2484 AA / 1520 BC - Job died (70+140=210 yrs)
> 2513 AA / 1491 BC - Exodus
> 2553 AA / 1451 BC - Moses died (120 yrs)
>CQ> If the Book of Job contains events occuring before Moses' time, why was that not placed PRIOR TO EXODUS?
The book of Job is just that. The Lord Jesus referred to a passage from Exodus as being from the book of Moses. Different books. Different sources. Different times and places. The placement of the 66 books of the Bible is not in chronological order of writing, but in the prophetic order indicated by the 66 chapters of Isaiah.
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be unto you. Amen. --Richard
>>RC> Figuring Job's full age to have been 210 years, that would mean he was born about 1730 BC. That would put the main events about 1660 BC. Moses was 120 years old when he died about 1451 BC, which means he was born about 1571 BC, or about 90 years after the Job events. That would make Moses about 51 when Job died.
>CQ> Moses lived 'til 120, just the time when the Israelites were ending their 40 years in the wilderness.
Yes. he died on his 120th birthday. They mourned for 30 days, and in the book of Joshua you'll find quite a few more days (spies, etc. Jos.2:1,22; 3:1,2,5) before Israel crossed Jordan (Jos.4:19; 10th Day 1st Mon.), ate the old corn of the land (day.15 mon.1), and the manna ceased to be supplied (day.16 mon.1), and they compassed the city of Jericho until the mighty wall was circumcised; etc.
>CQ> Therefore he was 80 when the Exodus occured,
Moses was 80 and Aaron 83 when they "spake unto Pharaoh." (Ex.7:7p)
>CQ> so by you reckoning Job died 29 years prior to the Exodus. Right?
Yes. Moses (51) sojourned near Uz, in Midian, "in Arabia." (11 years overlap from when Moses was "full forty years old" and left Egypt.)
(Note: I've added some more chrono-events, marked with # symbol:)
> (AA = Anno Adam calendar; BC = Before Christ calendar) > 1776 AA / 2228 BC - Tower of Babel (120 yrs after flood) > 1996 AA / 2008 BC - Peleg died > 2274 AA / 1730 BC - Job born ># AA / 1706 BC - Jacob (with 70-souls) in Egypt > 2344 AA / 1660 BC - Main events of Job age 70 in Arabia (Uz/Edom) > 2369 AA / 1635 BC - Joseph died (end of Genesis) ># AA / 1574 BC - Midwives "saved the men children alive" ># AA / 1574 BC - Aaron born (was saved alive by midwife :) ># AA / 1573 BC - People charged to cast male newborns in river > 2433 AA / 1571 BC - Moses born (# saved by the ark on the river) > 2473 AA / 1531 BC - Moses leaves Egypt, dwells in Arabia (Midian) > 2484 AA / 1520 BC - Job died (70+140=210 yrs) > 2513 AA / 1491 BC - Exodus (# and LAW given at SINAI in 3rd month) > 2553 AA / 1451 BC - Moses died (120 yrs)
>CQ> That is wrong. you have Moses being born only 60-odd years after the death of Joseph.
(Looks like 8 times 8 equals 64 [even] years to me. :)
>CQ> That would make the Exodus around 140 years after the death of Joseph.
More like 144 [even] years. (Fasten your seat belt! 1706-1571=135 :)
Moses was born 135 [odd] years after Jacob came into Egypt. Moses' maternal-grandmother (Levi's wife) was VERY PREGNANT with Moses' mom, Jochebed, who was born in Egypt after they arrived. All the SOULS of Jacob's sons and his daughters (plural) via Leah were 33. There were only 32 names given in Genesis 46:8-15, since children are officially named AFTER they are born. That pretty much shoots down the abortion-debate argument that people aren't souls before birth. Moses' mother's soul came into Egypt "embolic" (in the belly! :)
>CQ> Yet, as we know, the slavery in Egypt was 400 years, and it hardly did not come until after the death of Joseph, when a Pharaoh arose who didn't know Joseph for the great man he was.
Nope, not 400 years. "And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation." (Ex.1:6) That generation was, of course, the generation of Levi. The 2nd generation was that of Levi's son, Kohath. The 3rd generation was that of Levi's grandson, Amram. And the "fourth generation" was that of Levi's great/grandson, Moses.
"But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full." (Gen.15:16)
>CQ> Your chronology is flakey.
No, the Exodus (mo.1 d.15 1491bc) was 430 years to the day after the sojourning of Abraham (age 75) began while the souls of the children of Israel were yet in his loins. (To God be the Glory! :)
The giving of the LAW at Sinai (Mo.3 d.19?) was 430 years to the day after the giving of the Abrahamic COVENANT to Abram and his seed, while his "seed" was yet in his loins. Notice that Jacob still had "kings" in his loins in Gen.35:11p after (11+Dinah=12) children were already born to him. When Benjamin was born, the "kings" were then in him. (particularly king Saul, and his son, king Ish-bosheth.)
The sojourning began when Abram/Abraham was 75. (1921bc) Isaac was born when Abraham was 100. (100-75=25) Jacob/Israel was born when Isaac was 60. (25+60=85) Jacob died at age 147, 17 years after entering Egypt to "dwell", at the age of 130 years. (85+130=215)
So the SOJOURNING was 215 years from 1921 to 1706, before they DWELT in Egypt for 215 years from 1706 to 1491. (215+215=430 years)
"Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years." (Ex.12:40)
Paul confirms the 430 years: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty [430] years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." (Gal.3:16-18)
>CQ> Besides, your reasoning is circular. Just stating when Job was born is hardly proof that the chronology is correct.
Elihu (descendent of Abraham's brother Nahor) was "young" and Job and his three friends were "very old" when Job was afflicted. After that, Job lived 140 years, seeing "four generations" of descendents. Since the material blessing the Lord gave Job after he healed him was double of what he had before, it is assumed that the years of his life were also double of what he had before. (70+140=210)
>CQ> Besides, had he been born during the Egyptian captivity then he was already suffering, and so his tribulations would have been minor by comparison.
Job was born in Arabia, not Egypt; (1730-1706=24) years before Jacob went into Egypt. Job "was the greatest of all the men of the east." The prophet Elihu, (who wrote the book of Job :) was a descendent of Abraham's brother Nahor. Job's 3 friends were all from lands EAST of Jordan. The land of Uz bordered on Edom, Midian, [Sabea] and Chaldea. (Note the invasions by Sabeans and Chaldeans in Job 1.)
>>>CQ> If the Book of Job contains events occuring before Moses' time, why was that not placed PRIOR TO EXODUS?
>>RC> The book of Job is just that. The Lord Jesus referred to a passage from Exodus as being from the book of Moses. Different books. Different sources. Different times and places. The placement of the 66 books of the Bible is not in chronological order of writing, but in the prophetic order indicated by the 66 chapters of Isaiah.
>CQ> Firstly, the numbering of the chapters in Isaiah is a far more recent invention than the dividing the Bible into books.
The numbering then is a further fulfillment of the prophetic order.
>CQ> Even in that second regard there is some controversy. The Hebrew scriptures can be numbered as either 39 or 24 books, depending on how they are reckoned, and the book of Psalms is really 5 in its own right.
Yes. The Psalms are a book of books in the book of books. The division after the 39th chapter of Isaiah is so obvious that some "scholars" refer to chapters 40-66 as deutero-Isaiah. Josephus had his scriptures divided into 22 books, which would be the same as your 24, but with Judges + Ruth as 1, and Jeremiah+Lamentations as 1.
(The time from the completion of the book of Job, the oldest of the Bible books, to the completion of Revelation is 1611 years. :)
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. --Richard
From a message of 13Feb96 08:59 by Richard Clark to CQ--
>RC> Subject: Age of Job
>>CQ> Besides, your reasoning is circular. Just stating when Job was born is hardly proof that the chronology is correct.
>RC> Elihu (descendent of Abraham's brother Nahor) was "young" and Job and his three friends were "very old" when Job was afflicted. After that, Job lived 140 years, seeing "four generations" of descendents. Since the material blessing the Lord gave Job after he healed him was double of what he had before, it is -assumed- that the years of his life were also double of what he had before. (70+140=210)
Regarding my statement that "Job and his three friends" were "very old" -- closer analysis of the Elihu sections indicates a possibility that Elihu was directing his OPENING remarks only at Job's three friends. Notice 32:5,6 and observe verse 12: "Yea, I attended unto you, and, behold, there was none of you that convinced Job, or that answered his words." It is after 32:16 that Elihu starts to direct his speeches toward Job, through chapter 33, and then in chapter 34, broadens the discussion out again to include the others, until again, in chapter 35, he is speaking to only Job, to the conclusion.
Therefore, although Job was not "young" like Elihu, neither was he "very" old like his three friends. Isaac was 60 when Jacob and Esau were born. Esau was 40 when his first son (Eliphaz) was born, and about 76 when he took to wife the daughter of Ishmael. Job, though old at 70, would still be able to have children. (Abraham had more children by Keturah after Sarah died when he was about 137. :)
It is further observed that Job's "father" was still alive, as Eliphaz indicates "With us are both the grayheaded and very aged men, much elder than thy father." (Job.15:10)
So, we have Elihu the scribe in the "young" generation, Job in the "old" generation, Eliphaz & company in the "very old" generation, and also alive, generations much elder than Job's father. (But behold: Job was old enough to have "wrinkles"! Job.16:8p :)
Eliphaz's knowledge of antiquity was third hand, which he learned from "wise men" which heard directly from "their fathers"-- "Unto whom alone the earth was given, and no stranger passed among them." (Job.15:19 - "Them" refers to Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. :)
There is good indication that (22nd generation) Jacob was about 50 years old before (11th generation) Shem died at the age of 600. So, the time of Job's tribulation is after the death of Shem, but before the death of certain "wise men" born before Shem died.
(With these things in mind, let us continue. Thanks. :)
From a message by a Curious Questioner--
>CQ> Subject: Job is not a job
>>QU> ... I was always taught that the era of Job was somewhere after the fall and before the calling of Abraham.
>CQ> I think our own tradition has Job as very ancient too, but it is only legendary.
By "legendary", do you mean Job, or your tradition?
>CQ> I don't think that there is actually anything in any part of the Bible that really places Job chronologically.
(Please see also further messages in this series in that regard. :)
>CQ> Interestingly, however, what you learned in high school is different from Richard's chronology, in that he puts Job around the time of the start of the sojourn in Eqypt, 3 generations after Abram became Abraham.
It is unlikely that Job lived before the time of Abram/Abraham:
Job lived after the flood of Noah, since there are several references to the judgment of the flood in Job. Since there are several lands and separate peoples mentioned, then Job lived after the division of the nations at Babel. (Lands mentioned: Tema, Sheba, Ophir, Ethiopia.) "Eliphaz the Temanite" is apparently a descendent of Abraham, either Abraham's great-grandson, Eliphaz (Esau's son,) or more likely, a similar named descendent of Eliphaz's son "Teman". (Elihu the Buzite was a descendent of Abraham's nephew Buz, [Abraham's] brother Nahor's son. See Gen.22:21 & further Job messages. :)
>CQ> Ruth? That book is late in the Jewish Bible but far earlier in the Christian, more in keeping with its chronology, Ruth being, of course, the grandmother of David.
Ruth, (David's GREAT-grandmother, :) is placed after Judges & before Samuel, since it took place "WHEN the judges ruled" (Ruth 1:1p) and before David was born in the days of Samuel the last judge. (Ruth was a descendent of Abraham's [grand]-nephew Moab, Lot's son. :)
(Please see next message. Thanks. :)
>CQ> Anyway, you have given lots and lots of chronology, much of it interesting, but none of it tells me the chronology of Job, other than your simply TELLING me when he lived.
(When? He LIVED in the days of Eliphaz, Zophar, Bildad and Elihu. :)
> (21)Ishmael...........(minaeans)........ ZOPHAR > / > (20)Abraham-(21)Isaac-(22)Esau... (23? or 25?).. ELIPHAZ > / \ >(19)Terah (21)Shuah............(shuhites)......... BILDAD > \ > (21)Buz...[kindred of (22)Aram]........... ELIHU
>CQ> The book of Job stands alone in the Writings, and I don't think that he is mentioned anywhere else in the Bible.
The Lord himself mentions Job in Ezekiel 14, WITH Noah and Daniel.
Hast thou not heard of "the patience of Job"? (James 5:11p :)
>CQ> Without any corroborating evidence all I can say is that he lived--sometime.
Again let me remind you that, "the 1520 BC date for the BOOK of Job, found in the margin of the Bible, is derived from _USSHER's_ chronology, which is derived from internal evidence within the Bible taken at face value. The supposition is from cross-referencing of the book of Job with other books of the Bible, tracing the people and places mentioned, and in fact, there are many historical time-references as well as prophetic references which relate directly to the Great Tribulation."
The primary "people" mentioned: The LORD, Satan, "the sons of God", Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu. Also referred to: Adam (by name), Cain ("first man that was born"), Job's "father" (who was still alive and "much" younger than the "very aged men" with them.)
Plainly the time frame is when men still lived to be more than 120. Abraham's father lived to be 205. Abraham to 175, Isaac to 180, BUT Jacob had not "attained unto the days of the years of the life" of his "fathers", dying at the age of 147, a year short of the age of Abraham's grandfather. (SHEM was still alive after Abraham died!)
PLACES mentioned: The lands of UZ, Sheba(Yemen), Tema, Ethiopia, Ophir, Chaldea (Chaldeans), Naamath (Minaens). Apparently, the land of Uz bordered on Edom, Midian, Sheba, Chaldea, (and Moab :)
You need to keep in mind that Abraham didn't have his first son (Ishmael) until he was 86, and Isaac at 100, and Shuah (Shuhites) much later (150?), after Sarah died and he re-married to Keturah; and also, Jacob and ESAU (Edom) were born when Isaac was 60. In other words, their generations were stretched out beyond the 20-40 year birth-age range of some of their contemporaries.
(Please see next message. Thanks. :)
Although afflicted with a disease so painful that Job wished for death, he assumed he yet had "a few years" (16:22p) to live.
According to Job 7:3 & 29:2, there had been certain "months" (plural) time lapse between the time Job first began to lose his prosperity, and his discourse with his three friends. Part of that time would be between chapter one and two, (including the standard 30 days of mourning for his children,) and then there is the travel time for his friends, and the 7 days of silence before Job opened his mouth.
Since, later, in the days of Moses, the LORD gave a law requiring all the "males" to appear before the LORD "three times" per year, it's possible that the "sons of God" mentioned in Job had a similar requirement to "present" themselves before the LORD.
The Mosaic three times are "the morrow after the Passover" (early Spring), Pentecost (late spring), and "Ingathering" (autumn). Spring time would agree with the events of Job 1, and late spring or early summer would agree with the fact of Job sitting outside at NIGHT on the ash heap. Figuring one day for a messenger to bring word that Job was smitten with boils, and another day for the three friends to arrive, and the seven days of silence, and the final day of their "disCUSSion", you could have the pentecostal 50 days plus "ten days" of "tribulation" (rev.2:10p), making 60 days, or two "months" (plural).
That would put the events at the same time of year that Moses and the children of Israel arrived in the wilderness of Sinai (Ex.19); which would be the FULL MOON of the 3rd lunar month of the year.
"...behold the height of the stars, how high they are!" (Job 22:12p) "Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight." (Job 25:5)
SO! They're sitting outside on a warm NIGHT under the full moon, and could see the STARS and an eclipse of the MOON! ("it shineth not!" :)
Later, while Elihu was talking, a thunderhead started building, and lightning spread upon the clouds; cattle smelled the "vapour" of the coming storm due to the clash of a "cold" wave from the "north" and the warm wave they were already in; and behold, the beasts, seeing a tornado coming, scurry for their "dens"; Job stands up shivering from the sudden "frost", ready to head for cover; but Elihu the prophet, with his back to the whirlwind coming from the south, commands Job to "stand still"! Elihu was about to be "swallowed up" by the whirlwind, but then suddenly, a cleansing wind, and fair weather clears the pre dawn darkness. Elihu concludes his speech...
("THEN the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind..." Amen! :)
(Let's see now, grin, the Feast of Unleavened Bread is April 4th this year, [1996] and two lunar months later is about June 1st... Yep, sounds about warm enough for classes at Ash Heap University. :)
(Please see next message. Thanks. :)
"And all the mingled people, and all the kings of the land of Uz..." (Jeremiah 25:20p)
"Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz..." (Lamentations 4:21p)
"...for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea." (Isa.34:6p) (Idumea = later name for Edom)
Concerning Edom: "But I will send a fire upon Teman, which shall devour the palaces of Bozrah." (Amos 1:11p,12)
The preceeding four verses lend some support to the view that Job was the 2nd Edomite king, "Jobab", the son of Zerah of Bozrah, who was the son of Reuel, the son of Esau by his Arabian wife. (The son of Issachar who is called "Job" in Genesis 46 is also called "Jashub", and his descendents, the Jashubites, came out of Egypt with Moses, so he is not likely to be the same as the Job of Uz.)
The Arabic version of Job includes a subscription that indicates Job dwelt "in the land of Ausis[Uz], on the borders of Idumea[Edom] and Arabia; and his name before was Jobab;" and further says his mother was Bosorrha, and he was the 2nd king of Edom. (Of the kings of Edom in Genesis 36, Jobab is the only one that Moses provides a complete genealogy for. :)
>1948 AA> Terah was 70 when Abram/Abraham was born in Ur. >1996 AA> PELEG died at 239. >2006 AA> NOAH died at 950. >2034 AA> Abram was 86 when Ishmael was born in Hebron. >2048 AA> Abraham was 100 when Isaac was born in Beer-sheba. >2088 AA> Isaac was 40 when married Rebekah. >2108 AA> Isaac was 60 when the twins ESAU and Jacob were born. >2148 AA> Esau was 40 when Eliphaz-the-Edomite born (father of Teman) >2158 AA> SHEM died at 600. >2184 AA> Esau was 76 when Reuel was born. (Jacob in Padan-aram :) >2188 AA> ?Eliphaz-the-Edomite 40 when Teman born? >2197 AA> EBER/Heber died at 474. (great-grandson of Shem) >2228 AA> ?Teman 40 when "Eliphaz the Temanite" born? >2234 AA> ?Reuel 50 when Zerah born? >2255 AA> JACOB died at 147. >2274 AA> ?Zerah 40 when Jobab(Job) born? >2344 AA> Job 70 at notable lunar eclipse, night of June 1/2 1660 BC. >2484 AA> JOB died at 210. (1520 BC :)
That would make Eliphaz the Temanite about 116, and Zerah about 110, when Job was 70. If Elihu was 30, he would be 170 when Job died at the age of 210, when Moses was 111, and the children of Israel were still in the wilderness, in the neighborhood of the land of Uz...
"Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy." (James 5:11 A.V.)
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with us all. Amen. --Richard
From a further message by a Curious Questioner--
>CQ> Subject: Re: (4) Age of Job
>>RC> "Jobab", the son of Zerah of Bozrah, who was the son of Reuel, the son of Esau by his Arabian wife.
>CQ> OK. Reuel was another name for Moses' father-in-law, generally named Jethro, n'est-ce pas?
He "called himself" Jethro. The word "reuel" means "friend of God." Abraham is called "The Friend of God" in the Bible, and Arabs call Abraham's city of Hebron by a similar appellation. (El Khalil)
>CQ> That makes Job a brother-in-law to Moses, so then he does not predate Moses, at least not by much.
Reuel was the grandfather of Jobab. Since Moses "wrote" of the death of Jobab, then reason dictates he predated Moses, to some degree. As for whether Reuel/Jethro the MIDIANITE is the same as Reuel the EDOMITE/ISHMAELITE, well there's no obvious connection other than having the same name. However, I won't be surprised if I learn that the family tree of Job is connected somewhere along the line with that of Moses. (Maybe Jethro married one of Job's daughters? :)
"The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." (--Moses, Deut.29:29)
("There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed." :)
Grace be to them that love the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. --Richard
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